My list of fandoms is like a roll call by now, but a few of them are Star Trek, Avengers, Lord of the Rings, Hannibal, Supernatural, and honestly almost anything could appear on here, even het.
(The images in this should be collapsed to begin with because, well, one of them is a plate of raw meat that Steve is presumably eating for breakfast. The last image is a gif. Contains discussion of illness, treatments, ableism and eugenics. I should point out first that I don’t have any of these conditions other than asthma.)
So many fics focus only on skinny Steve’s asthma and portray him as being as minimally disabled as possible. Let’s just remember that according to all the various sources (the Disneyland poster, the form Steve hands in to enlist in the film) that Steve:
Had astigmatism - so he’d’ve had poor eye sight. I’ve also seen sources that say Steve is colour blind although I couldn’t find them again for writing this or to check what kind of colour blind Steve could be - it could be anything from red-green colour blindness to trichromatic colour blindness, but I’m not sure.
Had scoliosis - this is where the spine bends in a way that isn’t part of the typical S-shaped curve, so his spine would’ve bent to the side. It’s not a life threatening condition but it can be quite noticeable and I’ve not seen a single fic that’s taken it into account.
Was partially deaf. Again, I’ve never read a fic that mentions anyone speaking up for Steve to hear.
Had arrhythmia, an irregular heartbeat; he also had heart palpitations, high blood pressure and the more generic hearttrouble. I’ve also seen something saying he had angina, chest pain caused by restricted blood supply to the heart muscles.
He also had rheumatic fever at some point which causes red ring-like rashes on the limbs and can affect the brain, joints and heart - which given Steve already had heart problems is not a good thing. It affects older children up to the mid teens. It is treated with aspirin - which is hard on the stomach and unfortunately for little Steve, he also has:
Stomach ulcers. These are extremely painful and can be caused or made worse by drugs like aspirin. Stomach ulcers can be very dangerous if complications arise.
Another stomach complication Steve had was pernicious anaemia, which until the 20s was basically a death sentence. It’s a condition where an enzyme necessary to absorb vitamin B12 is not produced and the patient becomes progressively more anaemic until they suffer complications such as neurological damage or simply die (hence the word “pernicious”). Until 1928 the only treatment was to drink copious quantities of the juice from raw liver (more than a pint a day) or eat half a pound of raw liver a day, which contains the enzyme (cooking would destroy the enzyme). From ‘28, Steve was presumably relieved to hear, a liver extract was produced so that the quantity of liver juice one had to drink was 50x less and was also cheaper. The other symptoms were pretty much the same as other kinds of anaemia.
What do you mean you aren’t hungry?
Steve also had flat feet (less serious but with everything else this kid isn’t running anywhere)
He had scarlet fever as a child, which causes a sore throat, bright red rash, and can kill - especially as it can cause heart complications.
Steve’s mother was diabetic- his admission form states that he has a parent or sibling with diabetes, and since it’s automatic disqualification from the army and he has no siblings, that means it must be his mother (unless you don’t think Steve’s dad served in the army at all and he’s just lying to serve with Bucky.) Steve has a higher risk for diabetes. This in itself isn’t going to limit him at this stage in the proceedings, but it doesn’t make him popular with eugenicists either.
Generally his respiratory system is struggling - he gets sinusitis and frequent colds to go along with his…
Asthma can be pretty dangerous especially for someone with a heart condition, since symptoms of a severe attack can include arrhythmia. In the 1930s, inhalers were difficult for one person to use (especially if that one person was having an asthma attack), but asthma cigarettes were easily available, considerably cheaper, and hallucinogenic. They did work to a degree, but were nothing compared to today’s relievers. There were also dry powder inhalers, and if you could get hold of one, atomizers and electronic nebulizers for delivering medication.
Beyond this, in the 30s, 40s and 50s, asthma was considered a psychosomatic condition - an imagined product of mental illness due to the child crying inside the sufferer during an attack - so talking therapy was used as treatment as well. Steve would’ve been considered both physically frail and mentally ill because of his asthma.
Really, it isn’t a surprise that to go with this he has “nervous trouble" and suffers from fatigue - hell, it’s tiring just to be Steve. It’s also no wonder that he’s so small, given that his body was under so much stress whilst he was growing.
So what does this all mean for little Steve? Pre-serum Steve is chronically ill from birth or childhood, probably due to complications in birth or his earlier illnesses (there seem to be a lot of things happening in his respiratory system and stomach), and some of which is evidence of what at the time would be considered poor genetics.
People often associate eugenics with the Nazis, but its real home is rooted in the 20th century USA, and it was in full swing in the 20s and 30s. Many German eugenics research programs received their finding from the US before the war. Although as a white man living in New York Steve would’ve been safe from forcible sterilisation or euthanasia, public sentiment was overwhelmingly supportive of casting anyone framed as a dependent on the state or a fault in the gene pool cast out.
Eugenics was legal and mandated, and whilst Steve was growing up, thousands of impoverished women and state dependent children, especially women of colour and mentally ill women were forcibly sterilised by the state, and many people living in mental institutions or care homes were allowed to die of neglect.
Ironically, Captain America and the superserum are essentially an experiment in eugenics, which really reflects just how widespread this attitude was in the 40s. I’m analysing Steve for purposes of fic writing and not any genuine critical analysis here, but there’s no getting away from it: they put a chronically ill, disabled man in, and they get a genetically engineered super-soldier out.
Steve actually surviving both rheumatic and scarlet fever with asthma, heart problems and no antibiotics is pretty much a miracle in itself at this stage, and I guess we should all be grateful that Sarah Rogers was a nurse, because things like half decent atomizers to treat asthma were expensive and hard to obtain.
When Bucky is talking about Steve having nothing to prove, he’s not just talking about a small guy who is too sickly to join the army - he’s talking about someone who would’ve been considered an invalid and unworthy among his peers and made to feel like a dependent all of his life. Steve has to prove everything to everyone except Bucky, the only person who values Steve for himself and not against criteria of fitness or health, and most of all he needs to prove to himself that the things he’s internalised about himself aren’t true.
tl;dr: Basically, it’s time to start portraying Steve accurately in fic and stop glossing over aspects of his health that aren’t as fun to write as an asthma attack.
I have pinpointed why Joey should have been with Rachel instead of Ross: Ross is a total ‘bitter nice guy put in the friend zone.’ I mean, I love Ross, but when he was with Rachel, he was a jealous and argumentative asshat. And Rachel wasn’t a good person either, as she got exacting and petty and went on and on about not being on a break just as much as Ross went on about them being on a break.
Joey wasn’t like that with his feelings. He told her pretty damn quick, not waited years and years to tell her (or co-founded a Rachel hate group in high school because he was so in love with her and hated her for not feeling the same way. Give Ross a fedora already.) He accepted she didn’t feel the same after he told her how he felt, and even before he told her he saw how Ross was upset that he kept missing things with Rachel and the baby, so he pushed for Rachel to move in with Ross even though he wanted her to live with him more than anything and he missed her like hell when she left. He put her needs and Ross’ needs above his own.
Loving Rachel made Ross a douchebag—loving Rachel made Joey an even better man, and Rachel was also a better person around Joey and never argued with him over every freaking thing. I think the most serious fight they ever had was over Joey not giving Emma his stuffed penguin.
I love Ross, love Rachel, but not together. Plus, I like Rachel having someone who isn’t so controlling like her father was and who makes her feel smart.
I was just watching Thor for about the 78th time… And I have a bone to pick.
Let’s set aside here everything that Loki has done, and focus on how he was raised. People probably think “So, Odin didn’t tell Loki he was adopted. So what? That happens”. But think about this…Odin kept Loki’s true parentage from him his whole life, all the while raising him to believe that the frost giants were evil monsters. Odin knew Loki was a frost giant. He knew that was in his blood. And still he drilled into Loki that they were disgusting, vile, evil monsters who deserved to be overthrown.
Odin also raised him with the notion that he would be a king someday. When Odin said that, he never meant the King of Asgard…he meant the King of Jotunheim. Using Loki as pretty much nothing more than a bargaining chip for their games. Instilling the beliefs of Asgard into Loki, so when Odin felt it was time, he could push Loki into Jotunheim, ruling it under the belief system of Asgard.
Which means that Odin knew eventually he would have to tell Loki who he really was. There was no way he could put Loki in Jotunheim without Loki discovering he too was a frost giant. So Odin took this child…this innocent child…and brainwashed him into believing horrible horrible things about a race of beings, full well knowing that eventually Loki would learn he was bred from that race of beings.
I mean…what did Odin really think was going to happen? I don’t know if I truly buy Odin’s whole “I love both my sons as equals.” I personally think that is a crock of shit.
Odin enforced beliefs into Loki that in turn made Loki racist against himself.Beliefs imbedded so deeply that Loki went as far as to attempt to destroy his entire own race…which still meant absolutely nothing to everyone around him. So Loki was punished and nearly exiled all for doing something that he was raised to believe was right. No matter how hard he tried to gain respect by doing what he was taught, he was still emotionally neglected. A failure. And Odin, who could have truly reached out to Loki at his breaking point, instead decided to show disdain and contempt.
So why were Thor and Odin(or anyone) so surprised when Loki covered up his feelings of self resentment and diminished worth with malicious and desperate behavior? His whole life Loki had been told the frost giants were heinous, inferior monsters. So based upon the beliefs thatOdin enforced into Loki’s mind that too meant he was a heinous, inferior monster.
So yes, Odin, why didn’t you tell Loki from the beginning? Because it sure as fuck wasn’t to protect him…
*This is all just my personal opinion, and everyone has a different take on the actions of each character. Which I respectfully accept*
What gets me is that none of this shit would have happened if he’d known his true parentage early on. He’d bitterly understand why he couldn’t be king, but he might have not resented Thor as much and he might have turned to other ambitions. He might even believe he was loved, despite not being blood.
Instead, he lives in his brother’s shadow all his life because of this, vying for a crown he was never in the running for anyway. The cruel irony is that when Loki finds out who he is, he actually tries to do what Thor was doing at the beginning of the film.
Let’s say that Thor was never banished and instead was just stripped of his power and Loki got to rule instead. Loki would probably tell Thor he wasn’t his brother, and Thor would say exactly what he’d said in the Avengers—we were raised together, we played together, and we fought together. Except this time Loki might have listened because Thor is hardly going to stop him from destroying Jotunheim and the bifrost fight never happened. Okay, I want this AU now.
But really, look how much the new movie highlighted Odin’s awfulness. He wanted Loki executed, executed, and made sure Loki knew that the only reason he was alive was because of his mother. He says that ‘we are not gods, we live, we die’, but later on he chastises Thor for caring about Jane and refers to her as a goat. This was the woman who changed Thor and made him worthy to lift mjolnir, but fuck all that, right? Now she’s an inconvenience. And when Thor suggests going after Malekith so as to stop him before he gets to Asgard and Odin says they’ll fight instead, Thor asks Odin how many of our men must die. As many as are needed. Thor asks how are you any different, and Odin says the difference is that he will win.
Honestly, I hope Loki shanked his ass when he took the throne. All hail King Loki.
Okay, so consider this moment. And consider — Thor 2 spoiler — the rumored moment where Odin equates humans with goats. And consider Thor once said of Odin, “There will never be a wiser king than you.”
And then, again, this moment, where Loki thinks himself above humans, and Thor goes on to say that the throne would suit Loki ill.
Thor is right. Loki’s racism would (and did) make him a terrible king. But Thor doesn’t seem to be judging Odin and Loki by the same standards. Loki is genuinely confused here because Odin taught him to “think himself above them.” And Thor’s complaint doesn’t hold water unless he’s also willing to challenge Odin’s suitability to a throne.
Assuming the goat moment does in fact happen in Thor 2, which I actually don’t even know.
THEY ARE ABOVE US. Literally and in pretty much every conceivable way. Furthermore, every ruler ever thinks himself (or more rarely, herself) above the people they rule; that is how they come to hold a throne in the first fucking place.
Oh and Thor? The throne suited you pretty damn ill a few months ago, before your little brother saved it from falling into your hands too soon. Don’t act like this dispenser of wisdom and justice after you only changed your mind about genocide because a mortal woman was nice to you. And don’t even start in on your brother unless you’re willing to address the same issue with your fucking dad - you know, THE DISEASE BEHIND LOKI’S SYMPTOMS. (And yours.)
YES THANK YOU
I still am annoyed with all the double standards. Odin defeated the Frost Giants and left them crippled, so they could not recover after the war. Thor kills Frost Giants because one calls him Princess. Loki tries/succeeds at genocide of Frost Giants because he is trying to adhere to the principles of Asgards culture. Suddenly Odin and Thor love Frost Giants.
Thor “learns humility” in three days on Earth, but in Avengers he has no problem calling the humans petty and small minded and would have KILLED Tony without problem if Steve wouldn’t have put his shield in between! And thats why I also think Loki wasn’t just being sassy and a little shit when he says to Thor what a “great job” he is doing protecting Earth.
So yes Thor and Odin are allowed to be condescending, racist and kill anybody who are in their way, but when Loki does it he is pure EVIL.
And people wonder why we Loki fangirls are willing to make allowances for his crimes.
Can we stop for a moment and think about this single gif? Loki’s delayed reaction then playing along and turning his head as if Jane’s blow actually affected him? This is a god, being slapped by a mortal and she LITERALLY has no effect on him what so ever. He DIDN’T have to move any, but he played it up ‘like oh Lady of Thor who is able to wound me, you are worthy’, only she’s not and you can even see it in Sif’s face that this is an outright MOCKERY of Thor and his choice in a woman. This mortal thing does not hurt them, will be dead long before them have reached middle ages; (as there is no proof that the Golden Apples of Idunn have the same effects on mortals as it does on the gods). Loki is mocking Jane, insulting Thor, and showing to Sif that she will never be good enough to be Thor’s actual wife ( which she is in both myth and comics) because Thor wants THIS weak frail mortal.
I’m still reeling over these motherfucking space husbands. I mean, ‘because you are my friend?’ THEY ARE BARELY FRIENDS AT THE BEGINNING OF THE MOVIE AND NOW YOU’RE CRYING OVER KIRK DYING, SPOCK?! YOU DIDN’T CRY WHEN YOUR MOM DIED, YOU DIDN’T CRY WHEN PIKE DIED, YOU DIDN’T CRY OVER YOUR OWN IMMINENT DEATH, AND HERE YOU ARE, INSTANTLY BREAKING APART OVER KIRK DYING AND YOU KNOW WHAT, YOU ALSO ONLY BROKE APART WHEN HE CAUSED YOU TO BREAK APART IN THE FIRST MOVIE. KIRK IS THE ONLY ONE WHO CAN GET THROUGH TO SPOCK AND BRING OUT THESE EMOTIONS HE HAS WORKED HIS WHOLE LIFE TO HIDE. EVEN UHURA COULD ONLY GET THROUGH TO SPOCK WHEN HE WAS GOING THROUGH THAT BERSERKER RAGE WITH KHAN BY SAYING THAT KIRK’S LIFE WAS ON THE LINE. HE JUST SNAPPED OUT OF IT AND HELD OFF ON KILLING KHAN BECAUSE THAT LOGICAL, PEACEFUL, PACIFIST VULCAN WAS GOING TO KILL HIM, I KNOW IT. GOD DAMN THESE BEAUTIFUL, BEAUTIFUL SPACE HUSBANDS. 10/10, WOULD CRY AGAIN.
HE DOESN’T EVEN LOOK HAPPY. HE LOOKS LIKE WELL SHIT I HAVE NO OTHER OPTIONS LET’S GET THIS OVER WITH *GRIM RESOLVE*
HE LOOKS…ILL. MOTION SICK. EXHAUSTED.
I AM NOT READING TOO MUCH INTO THIS, LOOK AT HIM.
WASN’T THIS RIGHT AFTER THOR ALMOST GOT HIM TO STOP AND HE HAD TO STAB HIM TO GET AWAY?
TOM HIDDLESTON = the MASTER OF PORTRAYING CONFLICTED VILLAINS.
This is definitely NOT a man excited to kill and destroy.
He looks tired.
What I would like to address at this point of the movie is that, to me, it seemed they only let that first wave through. Just one of those massive beasts I can’t be bothered to remember the name of, and one wave of the Chitauri, basically. It was just enough for the Avengers to get their heads out of their asses and get a plan of attack. They came together as a team, they found out the Chitauri’s weaknesses, and people are being safely evacuated.
ONLY AFTER THIS POINT did Loki have them send the rest. While he is no hero, I really think he did not WANT to win this particular battle. Whether that was his plan all along, or it was what Thor said to him, is hard to say exactly.
I would note, however, the color of his eyes in this scene, (as well as in the scene with Thor, and a few sporadic ‘moments of clarity’ in the film) are green. Most of the time, especially when he first lands on Earth, his eyes are a dark sort of eerie blue color, an almost unreal blue, darker than what we see on Hawkeye, but still far from his natural color.
Essentially, at this point, he WANTS the Avengers to win. He’s all but assured their victory while still making it seem as though he’s all against them. Of course he maintains his hostilities, for he is the God of Lies, and his plans cannot be unravelled. He can not have any discover that his true wish is, after perhaps humiliating the Avengers as much as he can while still being defeated by them, to return to Asgard.
I would indeed say Loki is also a conflicted villain. He is at war with himself, a war that the good inside of him is losing horribly, but it seems to make small peeks through, from time to time (maybe very small, but it’s there still).
He doesn’t want this war. Not really.
As further evidence of his wanting to be stopped, Loki, essentially, deliberately leaves his staff where the Avengers can retrieve it. Though when he first left it, he was escaping a fight, he DOES wind up back on the roof again, and he simply leaves it there. This great weapon that holds so much power… he leaves it there as if it means nothing, as if he doesn’t want it. If he wanted it, truly, he would have picked it back up.
First off, I want to clearly state that these are simply theories and I’m working through my own thoughts still. Also, that this is not justifying Loki’s actions, but merely attempting to analyze why he did what he did. Here are the points I’d like to make:
Loki is flawed but his flaws are a result of a culmination of poor (if partially unconscious) treatment by his parents (mostly his father), his brother, and his peers. He is both a victim of circumstance and his own foolish actions.
Loki’s motivation is desperate desire for self-respect.
Loki is not a villain. He is not a hero. He is an anti-villain.
In first photo he clearly just landed on Earth, and he looks like he was falling through a space dumpster and had been swallowed by a space dumpster monster and got out from it’s rear end - but still, he looks like HIMSELF. He controls Selvig- but it is not zombifying- it is whispering ideas into humans ears, subtle and unnoticable. Like Loki would do.
In second picture it’s Loki again, a year (or so) after he fell through abyss and he doesn’t look like Loki from Thor- he looks like a drug addict in desperate need of a dose. He is all sweaty, shaky, his eyes are hollow, he is pale, and stumbles when he walks. What exactly happened to him?
It was clearly NOT the fall because we’ve seen him after crash landing - and he was OK, relatively healthy (he wasn’t badly injured since he walked without stumbling! ) and in his own mind. But now- he to me is zombified. And also- he already had Selvig under his control before- but in the beginning of Avengers he has to re-do it again as if he never met the scientist.
What the hell happened to him?
Thanos, that’s what. I believe after Loki got a glimpse of the tesseract, Thanos somehow learned about it and abducted Loki. Tortured, threatened, put on “drug” of some sort- may be the scepter or some other sort of energy, poisoned Loki’s mind.
I also think that if Loki wasn’t under the influence, he would have stopped when Thor asked him to. The way he hesitated in Avengers, the tear that fell from his eye when he stabbed Thor- all suggests that he still loves his brother and wants to come back. But he can’t. at least before he gets rid of his connection to Thanos. And this connection was NOT limited to their alliance. It was something more close, more physical.
The way Loki was speaking about freedom- several times- wasn’t it suspicious? wasn’t it like his subconsciousness cry for help?
And in the end- with that “drink” phrase- he suddenly- after all the crazy shit he’d done- turned back into his NORMAL self! as if he was slapped back into consciousness (and well, he was).
Also - think logically- why would Loki, who is a smartass, exchange a source of limitless power (and he knew exactly what tesseract was since it was once held in Odin’s treasury!!!) - the one he could eventually use for his purposes (and I know he would- in time, after thorough research and trials and errors) for a boy scout group of aliens who can be destroyed by not even superheroes, but just regular troops if need be? (I mean, let’s face it- if invasion happened somewhere, say, in San Diego, we would have needed only Tony Stark and Black Widow to close the goddamn hole in the sky. All other “problems” would have been dealt with by Marines and Airforce.) And it wasn’t even an army- one mother ship- ONE? Earth is big and humans have teeth, it wouldn’t have been nearly enough to subjugate us or- it would have led to total destruction of the planet.
Anyway- why would Loki exchange unlimited power that would have granted him ALL the realms if he wanted to for just one realm? It doesn’t make sense.
Only it does.
(To those who think this theory is my attempt to vindicate Loki’s actions and make him an “innocent”- it is not.) The sceptor’s control was not “breaking man’s personality and creating something new”- no- it was bringing up the strongest characteristics of the man and making them extreme.
So, my thought is:
Loki found the Tesseract and thought of using it to conquer Asgard (and Asgard first of all, that would be his first target of revenge and the point of his attention, not Midgard) and return again, as Aesir’s king.(attaching Midgard is not even reasonable from warfare point of view- it is not a strategic place since most of the power is concentrated in Asgard. It is like attacking a farm and leaving a military base for later. Say, Midgard falls- so what? other realms come together and retaliate. Illogical.)
He was contacted by Thanos, who promised him to show tesseracts real power and “lured” Loki in his realm only to later reveal his real plans of claiming Tesseract for himself. And Loki got caught like a butterfly in the spider’s web. And here I repeat- Loki had plans for revenge and thought Thanos would assist him with those plans, only he didn’t expect Thanos had plans of his own and he was nothing but a pawn in them.
Thanos’s influence brought out features Loki already had and made them grotesque- all his anger, pain, jealousy, thirst for attention, taste for mass destruction ( let’s face it, Loki has a predesposition for it- he already tried to destroy the whole planet once). Once done, Loki became a tool for Thanos- a sort of a rabid dog on the leash. The one who bites and thrashes and attacks people and wants to be medicated and saved at the same time but can’t since the collar is still on and the leash is in it’s master’s hand. It only is saved when the leash is thorn off.
My sentiments exactly.
Pretty good. That explains a lot.
Oh my god. This makes perfect sense.
Maybe the cognitive recalibration came from the Hulk smashing him intot he floor at Stark tower…
I really like this theory, as after my second watching I was wondering about Loki’s appearance and behaviour just after landing on Earth. Honestly, he looks awful in this scenes and, of course, he stumbles on the way out- clearly there is something wrong with him. And everything above beautifully explains that and suits my headcanon. Bravo!
Yes… yes. This does make sense.
Usually my argument would be “But no he did those things on purpose because reasons,” but I LIKE this theory. Because really. Loki’s not stupid. If he came to earth for the Tesseract he wouldn’t just trade it away. He wouldn’t just use it against people he already thinks are beneath him because it’s fun. He would use it against Thor, against his father, against the people that lied to and abandoned him. Conquering earth is nothing. The person he wants to kneel is Thor.
So yes. Tl;dr - This is brilliant and I love you. And now I have want of a fic in which Loki is a drug addict.
OMFG, it’s long but it’s glorious. I think you should read it even if you know nothing about Supernatural but want to know what Wincest is. This meta is so eloquent and all-inclusive that I sat and read this whole thing in one sitting. THIS IS WHY WE SHIP WINCEST, PEOPLE.
I’m much more prolific in K/S meta, but I can claim at least one F/K meta. This meta has been previously f-locked because it’s a ‘why I like F/K better than F/V’ meta, thus I didn’t want to stir up that old fight, but I feel like enough time has passed to bring it public.
How logical is it to choose a wife before puberty? At first glance it’s not, but I’ll tell you why it is: if left to their own devices, an adult Vulcan in the throes of Pon Farr will choose his mate according to his own desires and may force themselves on this person.
I’m not making shit up, I’m going by nature and what a biological urge is. So why can’t a Vulcan choose a mate later in life? This is where I think telepathy comes in, which is a special element. If anything, I think that would make them more dangerous. Remember ‘A Taste of Armageddon’ when Spock was able to make the guard think they’d escaped? Through a wall? Imagine a Vulcan with no engagement bond, how scary that would be. Think of how the tone of ‘Amok Time’ would change drastically. Unlike a fellow Vulcan who might have the physical and telepathic ability to fight off an unwanted advance, a human has no natural defense to telepathy and is physically weaker than a Vulcan.
Let me lay it out for you: Spock could get anyone he wanted to fuck him and the human would think it was their idea. Worst of all, Spock may not even remember he did it because it’s canon that memory loss is a part of Pon Farr. (This segment also serves as a fabulous kink meme prompt. Takers?) So obviously the bond is meant to protect the Vulcan, to preset him a mate for that time so he does not do something unforgivable.